The War Rages On
Do I even need to narrate at this point? Everyone else is bold.
You missed my point Cleric. I didn't say that Iraq was the responsible nation in 9/11
You missed MY point. My point was there are no tangible ties between Afghanistan and Iraq, unless you count that both are in the Middle East.
[ROTS]Zelse wrote:
We moved to Iraq because of previous treaty violations and hostile acts
That's not what the president told us. He told us that you can't mention Bin Laden without also acknowledging Saddam as his ally, which turned out untrue, and was our justification for going in in the first place.
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Also, when, during Bush's term have we tried dealing with Colombia? If we haven't put forth the effort yet that was given in dealing with Afghanistan and Iraq, then you can't bring Colombia into this discussion as a nation that we have failed making even grounds with.
Thanks for further validating my point, w;hich was exactly that: we aren't doing jack in Colombia except throwing at them. If we quit wasting time with such a frivolous fucking war, we could handle real issues.
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You then say it is much harder than it sounds in regards to Colombia. Be careful, because you are admitting that the presidency is a difficult job, making future posts on how bad the presidents are a little less convincing.
That's funny. I don't remember saying presidency was easy even once. I believe what I said is that our president is a fucking idiot, and the fact that his job is hard is all the more reason to pull his dumb ass out.
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And why would you think the US government is gonna let you peek at their files so you could feel assured they are doing the right thing? We only know what they will let us know and what the media digs out. I promise you there is alot none of us know about. So I am afraid I can offer you no proof of Saddam supporting bin laden without looking at classified pentagon files.
THIS IS NOT A SATISFACTORY ANSWER. Have you ever had someone ask you a question and you've responded, "I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you?" Because that's basically what you just said. We've also seen proof from the CIA's recent idiocy that we aren't good at collecting intel anymore, so why am I supposed to "take their word for it?" I'm not an idiot.
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And how can you be content to be in a country that has all of the wealth and military power but absolutely no inclination to use it to help other countries? Even if that's what you want the world doesn't work that way. There is a reason that our troops are the greatest in number for peacekeeping missions. Even those sanctioned by the UN. That reason is that we are the most capable. We are consistently the first country that is asked to supply troops and capital. Feeling no responsibility whatsoever to help your fellow man wherever they may be is a big reason why this world is the craphole it is. Apathy is not a good quality in anyone.
I can be content because that's the way things are. If we do peacekeeping things, we do it through the UN with other countries. Bottom line. We don't go rogue on their asses because "we know what's better." There's a difference between refusing help and holding it back until people ask, by the way. You're confusing my "don't invite yourself over statement" with "We'll never go to your country in a million years, eat shit and die."
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I promise you - when the US economy falters it is felt around the world. Many of the economically weaker countries value their currency against the dollar. (You like South America so much - Venezuela is a good example of a country whose currence is dollar-based.) Many countries also rely on us for trade. So yes when our economy dropped, not exclusively because of international trade central being destroyed but because of all the businesses the fell after that and the drastic rise in unemployment, it effects enough countries to create a global crisis
Wait, did you just say what I think you said? Our economy dropped not because of an international trade central being destroyed, but because of all the businesses fell and the unemployment that resulted from, what, lack of competition? Or maybe you're refering to the way Bush handles taxes and the economy, in which case I would suggest you point those fingers at him.
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Zelse, I agree with your last comment most! I have seen none of Clerics facts that Bush is a BAD president. He dismisses any good points about Bush's tenure as irrelevant. And I provide an analogy for him to think about and just as with the first one he takes the literal side of the statement rather than thinking about it the way it was intended. Since the next door analogy was a miniturization of the world as a whole, as a neighborhoood. But he is young and a bit over-emotional.
WHAT GOOD POINTS?!? You ahven't pointed out anything good! All you've talked about is how Saddam should be destroyed because he's an ecoterrorist and how Kerry is evil because he didn't serve a full year in Vietnam! Didn't take your analogy the way it was intended? No, I think you just really don't know anything about Hitler and Saddam. Oh, but I'm not thirty, so I must be an idiot right? Pat me on the head.
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Cleric, what exactly does the LAW and Bin Laden being part of the war effort have to do with one another? And where is YOUR proof that Osama and Saddam weren't friendly? And from things i have heard before on television Saddam was known to support terrorism. I have only heard this though, but it's better than saying it's not true without any backing that I have seen.
My proof is THE LACK OF PROOF that ties the two together. Have you been listening at all? Or are you one of those people who gets offended and just covers your ears and yelss "lalalala" until I stop talking? Saddam supporting terrorism in the past and Saddam being responsible for 9/11 are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Do I have to fucking spell this shit out for you every time?
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How is it that saddam caring for only himself and being evil personified irrelevant? He was known for wiping out whole groups of people without a thought. And you think we would be safe just because we are thousands of miles away. (again the neighbor with the gun a few doors down) How are we playing GOD anyway? Because we decide that he needs to be removed from power? Saddam had power, just on a smaller scale than hitler. And as I remember he was into racial clensing a bit himself.
John Doe cares only for himself. He's an evil man who embezzles. Problem is, he lives in say.....Doeland. Not a nice guy. Does that mean we can drop a bomb on his house and take his family to POW camps? No. Are the people he wiped out our people? No. Remember that we slaughtered practically all of the Native Americans living here. How come we haven't paid for it? Oh, yeah, because we're America, and it's different, right? Playing God is when you decide you know what's best for the world, whether the world agrees or not. I'm sick of repeating myself at this point, so if you'll just skip back towards our past points.
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Where the hell did this come from? I'm not acting on my urges, and I don't believe Bush did either. If that would have been the case there wouldn't have been so much discussion first.
What discussion? The discussion came afterwards, when we started losing men and lost sight of the goal that wasn't even really there!
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OK, what does that have to do with anything? I was born in 1965, Was a bit too small to carry a gun for one thing. And I believe that Kerry's war record speaks to his commitment.
I'll let you handle this reply:
You wrote:
Four months in Vietnam isn't anything to brag about. Most spent more time, like a year or more there on the front lines, more directly in harms way. Then comes home to campaign against the effort in Vietnam. Some patriot he was.
Four months in Hell is STILL time spent in Hell. If all you can attack is that he didn't die over there, than you are a fool.
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OK, present ALL the BAD that Bush has done in his tenure.
Have I not already? Need you make me read over the Patriot Act and outline everything in there? I really don't want to spend the time on that, but if you must, I will.
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Guess which type Kerry was? Is this the type of individual you want as President?
Kerry's military record not germane? He started his campaign touting it. It also indicates to me his very basic nature. I haven't changed my approach to life from the way I performed in the Service, what makes you think he has?
Again, let me reiterate how much Vietnam has nothing to do with the presidency. Let me then ask you this: why did he get all those medals for heroism? Vietnam was Hell, and he came out of there with yes, a couple of scratches, but he also saved lives. SAVED LIVES!
(Tarq posts video basically saying I'm an idiot for having a different opinion)
Tarq, nice alternative to presenting an arguement. I'll remember that next time I'm wrong.
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There have been thousands of documents linking several middle eastern countries together in plans to practice terrorism in the United States. And as a fun-fact, Sadaam actually invited Bin Laden into his country offering him hiding in Iraq from the U.S. soldiers. You know what Bin Laden said? He said no thank you because Sadaam was a mad-man.
Really? Give me some proof of this. Because I'll I've heard are "there are papers" and when anyone asks where they are, "it's a secret."
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As for the first argument here, read my above comment...they were allies in that they both hated America and planned organized attacks against us.
Bush also said we invaded Iraq because of WOMDs, but that wasn't his true reason. As I posted before, he invaded Iraq because he is a consevative president doing what he is morally convicted to do. It states in the Bible that the party (nation, individual, society, etc.) with the power is responsible for aiding those who can't defend themselves, i.e.-the surrounding countries of Iraq, the citizens of Iraq, etc.
You mean he decided to change the wording of his attack after he found no WMDs at all. I will be fair to the president and give him the benefit of the doubt: Iraq has a lot of fucking sand to hide shit in. But he should just say that instead of falling back on this morality bullshit.
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First off, I said we will move into Colombia when the time comes. I don't know what you are getting at. We haven't tried jack crap when it comes to converting Colombia to a free nation, democratic government, the works, so I will just move on. Second, "we could handle real issues"???? Like what?! War is quite possibly the most important issue regarding...regarding anything at all! Even if you don't agree with war, Americans better damn well support the young men and women who are dying for something they volunteered for to defend their country. The country that is the greatest, most powerful, most responsible nation ever to see the light of day.
You haven't done your research. We've been in Colombia since the Clinton adminstration, when HE was fucking it up. We've dumped at least 13 billion dollars in weaponry alone trying to help them out. Interesting fact: 98% of aid goes to weapons and ammo, one goes to food, and one goes to aiding their economy.
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Yet again, you overlooked my point. I wasn't saying you said the presidency was easy, I was saying that all your criticisms on the president, no matter how unsupported or very sensible they may be, will lose some validity in my eyes being that you talked about a part of the presidency that isn't easy at all to deal with. In a nutshell: If the presidency is difficult, its hard to criticize.
Not true, since these men who run for office say from day one they are the man for the job. If they are the man, why should we cut slack? If the number one chef in the world does a suckass job, do you give him a big tip or tell him to shove it?
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You know, the last time I checked Bush leads the executive branch of our government. all he had is the power to veto what congerss passes. So, how does HE handle taxes and the economy? Congress votes on tax changes not Bush.
Oh, don't give me this runaround horseshit. Most of Congress is Republican and in his pocket. How do you think the Patriot Act got passed (aside from no one actually reading it)?
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Cleric, your John Doe analogy is way off base. embezzling (possibly an act of evil) won't kill anyone, or contaminate major portions of the world. So, that is out the window.
The crime doesn't matter. We don't have the right to govern people who we disagree with.
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The war is not a frivolous thing. Just because you refuse to see tha danger Saddam posed to the world, certainly doesn't make anything frivolous. I'm sorry that someone would have to put a gun directly to your head for you to see the danger. Afghanistan and Iraq were 2 positive things that Bush accomplished in his tenure. I think he has made america stronger since 9\11. Bin Laden and Saddam, if not friendly were synonymous with terrorism and destructive behavior.
What danger? Did he have big fat nukes pointed at our soil? No. Did he have anyway of threatening our country directly as an opposing power? Well, that's just fucking laughable. Afghanistan was necessary; Iraq was needlessly excessive.
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As far as Vietnam, that speaks to Kerry's character. I can't even imagine that anyone could acquire that many military awards without any permanent disability.
Don't be like the Intelligent Design douchbags and assume that just because you can't imagine it that it must be impossible.
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For the native Americans, I feel bad for what happened to them. I never agreed with what our ancestors did to them. That's what makes me sick when white supremacists say this is a white country, because they totally ignore history and the fast that americans STOLE this country from them. I just like to think tha most of us learned from that.
You don't sound so patriotic anymore.
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finally, I never said nor suggested that you are an idiot. Especially not because of your age. I will be 39 next month and I have seen a lot more in my life than you. I just have a different perspective than you. Don't think any of this means that I don't like you , or that I am insulting your intelligence. I would like to see the evidence you are forming your opinion from, you are more than welcome to post links to anything that would help ypur case. That also includes things about Kerry that shows why you are so passionate about him.
I have zero passion for Kerry. I think I made it crystal clear when I called him an idiot. My only point on him is that if you're going to attack his record, flawed or not, make sure your candidate's record isn't worse. Bush got out of Vietnam because of the Nation Guard. Real fucking heroic.
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So it's okay to allow mass genocide once again if the UN says "meh - we don't want to get involved." There's a great answer to global conflict.
THEY WEREN'T KILLING US UNTIL WE GOT INVOLVED. To me, one American life is more valuable than a hundred thousand Iraqi lives. Period.
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And it did happen after 9/11. Please reread what I wrote and try again. And bad econ decisions don't effect a country immediately. It takes a few years. That's why Reaganomics seemed to be great in the first and later kicked us in the ass. My point was that even the slightest dip in our economy effects many other countries. You said it didn't. I was showing you that it does. You want exact causes - yes it started before 9/11. But ultimately 9/11 was a huge blow. You don't believe me? www.wto.com. Look at the changes in global trade and prices. Also look up unemployment changes during the year that followed. Even France admits that. Airbus (a Euro company) and Boeing (US company) will tell you that they were killed after 9/11. But what do I know. You don't think our economy effects other economies - that makes you naive. That's why I pointed out that other countries are effected - they have dollar based economies.
If I somehow implied that I didn't think our economy's fal didn't affect other countries, than I must have worded something wrong, because any idiot knows that when one of the biggest economical powers in the world starts caving in, the rocks on the ground tremble too. And if I recall correctly, our economy started going down the second Bush took office, but I don't have any data that backs that up.
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Ooh - better website - www.imf.org they will tell you all about how Venezuela and other countries were forced to change to a dollar based economy. (IMF debate is another thread.)
Ahhh, Venezuela. Don't we own them? Oh well. So that this doesn't drag on forever semantically, let me make my points of view very clear:
1. Bush is an idiot. In my opinion. He's made bad decisions. In fact. I don't think he should be reelected. My opinoin.
2. John Kerry is a douche. Fact. His war record has little/nothing to do with anything except to inflate his ego and God knows what else. Fact. Would he be a better president? I don't know. But I'm willing to give him a shot.
3. The war in Afghanistan was justified and well-executed in my opinion. The Iraq war was ridiculous and overcostly to American families in my opinion.
4. People here are easily upset. Fact. Making people upset makes me smile. Fact.
Hopefully they'll stop rehashing the same arguement. If not, these posts will eventually lose their humor and I'll have to stop doing them. I can only point out how stupid you are humourously so many times before people start weeping instead of laughing.
You missed my point Cleric. I didn't say that Iraq was the responsible nation in 9/11
You missed MY point. My point was there are no tangible ties between Afghanistan and Iraq, unless you count that both are in the Middle East.
[ROTS]Zelse wrote:
We moved to Iraq because of previous treaty violations and hostile acts
That's not what the president told us. He told us that you can't mention Bin Laden without also acknowledging Saddam as his ally, which turned out untrue, and was our justification for going in in the first place.
Quote:
Also, when, during Bush's term have we tried dealing with Colombia? If we haven't put forth the effort yet that was given in dealing with Afghanistan and Iraq, then you can't bring Colombia into this discussion as a nation that we have failed making even grounds with.
Thanks for further validating my point, w;hich was exactly that: we aren't doing jack in Colombia except throwing at them. If we quit wasting time with such a frivolous fucking war, we could handle real issues.
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You then say it is much harder than it sounds in regards to Colombia. Be careful, because you are admitting that the presidency is a difficult job, making future posts on how bad the presidents are a little less convincing.
That's funny. I don't remember saying presidency was easy even once. I believe what I said is that our president is a fucking idiot, and the fact that his job is hard is all the more reason to pull his dumb ass out.
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And why would you think the US government is gonna let you peek at their files so you could feel assured they are doing the right thing? We only know what they will let us know and what the media digs out. I promise you there is alot none of us know about. So I am afraid I can offer you no proof of Saddam supporting bin laden without looking at classified pentagon files.
THIS IS NOT A SATISFACTORY ANSWER. Have you ever had someone ask you a question and you've responded, "I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you?" Because that's basically what you just said. We've also seen proof from the CIA's recent idiocy that we aren't good at collecting intel anymore, so why am I supposed to "take their word for it?" I'm not an idiot.
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And how can you be content to be in a country that has all of the wealth and military power but absolutely no inclination to use it to help other countries? Even if that's what you want the world doesn't work that way. There is a reason that our troops are the greatest in number for peacekeeping missions. Even those sanctioned by the UN. That reason is that we are the most capable. We are consistently the first country that is asked to supply troops and capital. Feeling no responsibility whatsoever to help your fellow man wherever they may be is a big reason why this world is the craphole it is. Apathy is not a good quality in anyone.
I can be content because that's the way things are. If we do peacekeeping things, we do it through the UN with other countries. Bottom line. We don't go rogue on their asses because "we know what's better." There's a difference between refusing help and holding it back until people ask, by the way. You're confusing my "don't invite yourself over statement" with "We'll never go to your country in a million years, eat shit and die."
Quote:
I promise you - when the US economy falters it is felt around the world. Many of the economically weaker countries value their currency against the dollar. (You like South America so much - Venezuela is a good example of a country whose currence is dollar-based.) Many countries also rely on us for trade. So yes when our economy dropped, not exclusively because of international trade central being destroyed but because of all the businesses the fell after that and the drastic rise in unemployment, it effects enough countries to create a global crisis
Wait, did you just say what I think you said? Our economy dropped not because of an international trade central being destroyed, but because of all the businesses fell and the unemployment that resulted from, what, lack of competition? Or maybe you're refering to the way Bush handles taxes and the economy, in which case I would suggest you point those fingers at him.
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Zelse, I agree with your last comment most! I have seen none of Clerics facts that Bush is a BAD president. He dismisses any good points about Bush's tenure as irrelevant. And I provide an analogy for him to think about and just as with the first one he takes the literal side of the statement rather than thinking about it the way it was intended. Since the next door analogy was a miniturization of the world as a whole, as a neighborhoood. But he is young and a bit over-emotional.
WHAT GOOD POINTS?!? You ahven't pointed out anything good! All you've talked about is how Saddam should be destroyed because he's an ecoterrorist and how Kerry is evil because he didn't serve a full year in Vietnam! Didn't take your analogy the way it was intended? No, I think you just really don't know anything about Hitler and Saddam. Oh, but I'm not thirty, so I must be an idiot right? Pat me on the head.
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Cleric, what exactly does the LAW and Bin Laden being part of the war effort have to do with one another? And where is YOUR proof that Osama and Saddam weren't friendly? And from things i have heard before on television Saddam was known to support terrorism. I have only heard this though, but it's better than saying it's not true without any backing that I have seen.
My proof is THE LACK OF PROOF that ties the two together. Have you been listening at all? Or are you one of those people who gets offended and just covers your ears and yelss "lalalala" until I stop talking? Saddam supporting terrorism in the past and Saddam being responsible for 9/11 are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Do I have to fucking spell this shit out for you every time?
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How is it that saddam caring for only himself and being evil personified irrelevant? He was known for wiping out whole groups of people without a thought. And you think we would be safe just because we are thousands of miles away. (again the neighbor with the gun a few doors down) How are we playing GOD anyway? Because we decide that he needs to be removed from power? Saddam had power, just on a smaller scale than hitler. And as I remember he was into racial clensing a bit himself.
John Doe cares only for himself. He's an evil man who embezzles. Problem is, he lives in say.....Doeland. Not a nice guy. Does that mean we can drop a bomb on his house and take his family to POW camps? No. Are the people he wiped out our people? No. Remember that we slaughtered practically all of the Native Americans living here. How come we haven't paid for it? Oh, yeah, because we're America, and it's different, right? Playing God is when you decide you know what's best for the world, whether the world agrees or not. I'm sick of repeating myself at this point, so if you'll just skip back towards our past points.
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Where the hell did this come from? I'm not acting on my urges, and I don't believe Bush did either. If that would have been the case there wouldn't have been so much discussion first.
What discussion? The discussion came afterwards, when we started losing men and lost sight of the goal that wasn't even really there!
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OK, what does that have to do with anything? I was born in 1965, Was a bit too small to carry a gun for one thing. And I believe that Kerry's war record speaks to his commitment.
I'll let you handle this reply:
You wrote:
Four months in Vietnam isn't anything to brag about. Most spent more time, like a year or more there on the front lines, more directly in harms way. Then comes home to campaign against the effort in Vietnam. Some patriot he was.
Four months in Hell is STILL time spent in Hell. If all you can attack is that he didn't die over there, than you are a fool.
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OK, present ALL the BAD that Bush has done in his tenure.
Have I not already? Need you make me read over the Patriot Act and outline everything in there? I really don't want to spend the time on that, but if you must, I will.
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Guess which type Kerry was? Is this the type of individual you want as President?
Kerry's military record not germane? He started his campaign touting it. It also indicates to me his very basic nature. I haven't changed my approach to life from the way I performed in the Service, what makes you think he has?
Again, let me reiterate how much Vietnam has nothing to do with the presidency. Let me then ask you this: why did he get all those medals for heroism? Vietnam was Hell, and he came out of there with yes, a couple of scratches, but he also saved lives. SAVED LIVES!
(Tarq posts video basically saying I'm an idiot for having a different opinion)
Tarq, nice alternative to presenting an arguement. I'll remember that next time I'm wrong.
Quote:
There have been thousands of documents linking several middle eastern countries together in plans to practice terrorism in the United States. And as a fun-fact, Sadaam actually invited Bin Laden into his country offering him hiding in Iraq from the U.S. soldiers. You know what Bin Laden said? He said no thank you because Sadaam was a mad-man.
Really? Give me some proof of this. Because I'll I've heard are "there are papers" and when anyone asks where they are, "it's a secret."
Quote:
As for the first argument here, read my above comment...they were allies in that they both hated America and planned organized attacks against us.
Bush also said we invaded Iraq because of WOMDs, but that wasn't his true reason. As I posted before, he invaded Iraq because he is a consevative president doing what he is morally convicted to do. It states in the Bible that the party (nation, individual, society, etc.) with the power is responsible for aiding those who can't defend themselves, i.e.-the surrounding countries of Iraq, the citizens of Iraq, etc.
You mean he decided to change the wording of his attack after he found no WMDs at all. I will be fair to the president and give him the benefit of the doubt: Iraq has a lot of fucking sand to hide shit in. But he should just say that instead of falling back on this morality bullshit.
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First off, I said we will move into Colombia when the time comes. I don't know what you are getting at. We haven't tried jack crap when it comes to converting Colombia to a free nation, democratic government, the works, so I will just move on. Second, "we could handle real issues"???? Like what?! War is quite possibly the most important issue regarding...regarding anything at all! Even if you don't agree with war, Americans better damn well support the young men and women who are dying for something they volunteered for to defend their country. The country that is the greatest, most powerful, most responsible nation ever to see the light of day.
You haven't done your research. We've been in Colombia since the Clinton adminstration, when HE was fucking it up. We've dumped at least 13 billion dollars in weaponry alone trying to help them out. Interesting fact: 98% of aid goes to weapons and ammo, one goes to food, and one goes to aiding their economy.
Quote:
Yet again, you overlooked my point. I wasn't saying you said the presidency was easy, I was saying that all your criticisms on the president, no matter how unsupported or very sensible they may be, will lose some validity in my eyes being that you talked about a part of the presidency that isn't easy at all to deal with. In a nutshell: If the presidency is difficult, its hard to criticize.
Not true, since these men who run for office say from day one they are the man for the job. If they are the man, why should we cut slack? If the number one chef in the world does a suckass job, do you give him a big tip or tell him to shove it?
Quote:
You know, the last time I checked Bush leads the executive branch of our government. all he had is the power to veto what congerss passes. So, how does HE handle taxes and the economy? Congress votes on tax changes not Bush.
Oh, don't give me this runaround horseshit. Most of Congress is Republican and in his pocket. How do you think the Patriot Act got passed (aside from no one actually reading it)?
Quote:
Cleric, your John Doe analogy is way off base. embezzling (possibly an act of evil) won't kill anyone, or contaminate major portions of the world. So, that is out the window.
The crime doesn't matter. We don't have the right to govern people who we disagree with.
Quote:
The war is not a frivolous thing. Just because you refuse to see tha danger Saddam posed to the world, certainly doesn't make anything frivolous. I'm sorry that someone would have to put a gun directly to your head for you to see the danger. Afghanistan and Iraq were 2 positive things that Bush accomplished in his tenure. I think he has made america stronger since 9\11. Bin Laden and Saddam, if not friendly were synonymous with terrorism and destructive behavior.
What danger? Did he have big fat nukes pointed at our soil? No. Did he have anyway of threatening our country directly as an opposing power? Well, that's just fucking laughable. Afghanistan was necessary; Iraq was needlessly excessive.
Quote:
As far as Vietnam, that speaks to Kerry's character. I can't even imagine that anyone could acquire that many military awards without any permanent disability.
Don't be like the Intelligent Design douchbags and assume that just because you can't imagine it that it must be impossible.
Quote:
For the native Americans, I feel bad for what happened to them. I never agreed with what our ancestors did to them. That's what makes me sick when white supremacists say this is a white country, because they totally ignore history and the fast that americans STOLE this country from them. I just like to think tha most of us learned from that.
You don't sound so patriotic anymore.
Quote:
finally, I never said nor suggested that you are an idiot. Especially not because of your age. I will be 39 next month and I have seen a lot more in my life than you. I just have a different perspective than you. Don't think any of this means that I don't like you , or that I am insulting your intelligence. I would like to see the evidence you are forming your opinion from, you are more than welcome to post links to anything that would help ypur case. That also includes things about Kerry that shows why you are so passionate about him.
I have zero passion for Kerry. I think I made it crystal clear when I called him an idiot. My only point on him is that if you're going to attack his record, flawed or not, make sure your candidate's record isn't worse. Bush got out of Vietnam because of the Nation Guard. Real fucking heroic.
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So it's okay to allow mass genocide once again if the UN says "meh - we don't want to get involved." There's a great answer to global conflict.
THEY WEREN'T KILLING US UNTIL WE GOT INVOLVED. To me, one American life is more valuable than a hundred thousand Iraqi lives. Period.
Quote:
And it did happen after 9/11. Please reread what I wrote and try again. And bad econ decisions don't effect a country immediately. It takes a few years. That's why Reaganomics seemed to be great in the first and later kicked us in the ass. My point was that even the slightest dip in our economy effects many other countries. You said it didn't. I was showing you that it does. You want exact causes - yes it started before 9/11. But ultimately 9/11 was a huge blow. You don't believe me? www.wto.com. Look at the changes in global trade and prices. Also look up unemployment changes during the year that followed. Even France admits that. Airbus (a Euro company) and Boeing (US company) will tell you that they were killed after 9/11. But what do I know. You don't think our economy effects other economies - that makes you naive. That's why I pointed out that other countries are effected - they have dollar based economies.
If I somehow implied that I didn't think our economy's fal didn't affect other countries, than I must have worded something wrong, because any idiot knows that when one of the biggest economical powers in the world starts caving in, the rocks on the ground tremble too. And if I recall correctly, our economy started going down the second Bush took office, but I don't have any data that backs that up.
Quote:
Ooh - better website - www.imf.org they will tell you all about how Venezuela and other countries were forced to change to a dollar based economy. (IMF debate is another thread.)
Ahhh, Venezuela. Don't we own them? Oh well. So that this doesn't drag on forever semantically, let me make my points of view very clear:
1. Bush is an idiot. In my opinion. He's made bad decisions. In fact. I don't think he should be reelected. My opinoin.
2. John Kerry is a douche. Fact. His war record has little/nothing to do with anything except to inflate his ego and God knows what else. Fact. Would he be a better president? I don't know. But I'm willing to give him a shot.
3. The war in Afghanistan was justified and well-executed in my opinion. The Iraq war was ridiculous and overcostly to American families in my opinion.
4. People here are easily upset. Fact. Making people upset makes me smile. Fact.
Hopefully they'll stop rehashing the same arguement. If not, these posts will eventually lose their humor and I'll have to stop doing them. I can only point out how stupid you are humourously so many times before people start weeping instead of laughing.
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